VOGONS


First post, by Mau1wurf1977

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Firstly I would like to thanks a few people for pointing me into the right direction!

rfnagel from VOGONS for his excellent information about SoundFonts in general and specifically how the work on Creative Labs cards.

retro games 100 from VOGONS for doing some recordings on his pimped out 28MB AWE64 GOLD which was an eye / ear opener and showed me just how good these SoundFonts can sound!

erwin, HunterZ and swaaye from VOGONS for their general contribution regarding Retro soundcards.

If I forgot anyone else I apologize in advance...

Okidoki so firstly what is this thread / post about:

rfnagel and RG100 have already provided us with excellent information and recordings regarding SoundFonts for Creative Labs AWE64 GOLD and Live!: AWE64 with 32 (28 really) MB of RAM

I would like to expand on this and provide some information and recordings with Creative Labs X-FI cards. The card I am using is a PCI X-Fi Xtreme Audio (thanks to mootant for hooking me up).

My hardware setup:

- Asus AM3 mainboard
- Phenom II Quadcore
- 4GB DDR3
- X-FI Xtreme Music
- Windows 7 Pro 64bit
- D-Fend 1.0.3

Card:

Creative Labs PCI Xtreme Audio

dsc02084bg.th.jpg

Drivers:

All the drivers are available from the Creative wesbite. I did not install any software from installation CDs (I don't have any). I installed:

- Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi series driver 2.18.0015
- Creative SoundFont Bank Manager 3.21.02
- Creative Console Launcher 2.61.09

And that's it!

The installation went very smooth. No errors or anything else to report.

SounFont used:

Copy LinkChoriumRevA.SF2: http://www.mediafire.com/?9hyw44c7c6jfo8d

Loading the SoundFont:

- Launch Creative SoundFont Bank Manager, press Bank, Press Load and point to LinkChoriumRevA.SF2

You will get this screen:

xfisoundfontmanager.png

I have also ticked the Box "EAX: in the X-Fi driver. These applies Reverb and/or Chorus and adds life to the music. Otherwise a lot of Songs sound very dry / flat.

Configuring D-Fend reloaded to use the X-Fi card + SoundFont:

D-Fend reloaded has a nice button called "Select Midi Device from Device Manager" in the Midi section. Click on it and you will get a list for all the Midi devices on your machine. The SoundFont we loaded can be accessed through SB X-Fi Synth B. So in my case just type in "2" into the box "Additional settings" as per screenshot:

midiselection.png

That's it!

Now just select "General Midi" in your DOSBox and enjoy the music!

My verdict:

I'm blown away by the quality of this General Midi implementation. I personally prefer it over a real Roland Sound Canvas.

My impression is that this General Midi implementation brings something new to the table. A lot of other cards and SoundFonts "just" try to get as close to a Roland Sound Canvas and often fail miserably.

The X-Fi + LinkChoriumRevA.SF2 aims for something "beyond" a Roland Sound Canvas.

Sample recordings:

This file is rather large. It includes recordings from Doom (4 levels), Doom 2, Dark Forces, Descent, Descent 2 and Duke Nukem3D.

You can download it here: http://www.mediafire.com/?al4pe54f6kmzgvf

Last edited by Mau1wurf1977 on 2010-12-29, 08:49. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 2 of 42, by Mau1wurf1977

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🤣 It never ends!

Had some gaps / redundant stuff in that recording. I fixed the link in the original post, but just in case here is the new link: http://www.mediafire.com/?al4pe54f6kmzgvf

Reply 4 of 42, by Mau1wurf1977

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Amigaz wrote:

Did you apply some "hall" effect when you recorded Duke 3D?

Quite possibly!

As stated higher up in the post I ticked the "EAX" box. I guessed that this might enable Reverb and / or Chorus and it appears that's exactly what it's doing.

The Duke3D tune doesn't impress me that much, even on other General Midi synths. Not sure maybe it's because I wasn't much into this game back in the days...

Reply 5 of 42, by retro games 100

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I've never tried any of this. My excuse is that I've been too busy with old hardware. But I've just had a thought - on a modern machine, with an X-Fi and plenty of RAM, can you experiment with huge sound fonts? I mean, 100-200 meg sized ones?

Reply 6 of 42, by elianda

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Don't get me wrong Mau1wurf1977, but I think it is a quite obvious task to load a DOS related soundfont prior using Dosbox. It is probably nice to have some guide for XiFi users how to load a SF...

Still I would like to add some more info:

You can do this already with a SB Live! and Audigy. Emu10K based cards feature 64 HW voices, while XiFi has 128?.
The way to do this is identical. Load your favorite SF2 soundfont, run DosBox...
Slightly different playback characteristics might apply for using the official drivers or kx drivers.
(I prefer kx drivers)

If you don't own a SF2 soundfont compatible sound solution you can help yourself by replacing the DirectX soundfont gm.dls with a converted SF2 soundfont. I think Awave can convert SF formats f.e.
gm.dls should be in \system32\drivers and is used if you choose Microsoft Software Synthesizer as MIDI playback device.
This works fine on every system.

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Reply 7 of 42, by Mau1wurf1977

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retro games 100 wrote:

I've never tried any of this. My excuse is that I've been too busy with old hardware. But I've just had a thought - on a modern machine, with an X-Fi and plenty of RAM, can you experiment with huge sound fonts? I mean, 100-200 meg sized ones?

Well I tried rfnagel's GM3 file, but it didn't sound as good.

I'm not sure if there is a memory limit. Let's wait for rfnagel to come online, I'm sure he can contribute something intersting!

Reply 8 of 42, by keropi

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hhhmmmm.... I have the XiFi Elite platinum edition with the 5.25" panel... never actually used it in anything else than windows gaming and mp3 listening with the crystalizer... time to test it a little more 😁

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Reply 9 of 42, by rfnagel

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keropi wrote:

with the 5.25" panel

I'm guessing that you're refering to the "Live Drive"? I always thought that thing looked EXTREMELY cool and handy... heh, wish I had a free extrenal 5.25" bay in my current rig's case 😀

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

I'm not sure if there is a memory limit. Let's wait for rfnagel to come online, I'm sure he can contribute something intersting!

I really have no idea if there is a memory limit or not.

What I do know is, the first incarnations of the Sound Blaster Live!; along with the Windows 98 drivers; indeed had a limit... from what I've read, something in the (ridiculous!) neighborhood of 32MB or so. These limitations were overcome/fixed in the Windows XP (and I assume, newer) versions of the drivers.

As far as EAX/Reverb/Chorus/etc... I'm not sure about the X-Fi drivers and such (Creative SoundFont Bank Manager and the Creative Console Launcher), as the SBLive!'s Windows XP software and drivers use slightly different animals. For the EAX stuff in the "Entertainment Mode" of the SFBank Manager, you have "None" checked... I'd reccomend using one of the other options (possibly "Opera" or "Royal" Hall).

If it's anything like the SBLive! WXP stuff, the reverb and chorus will only have effect for MIDI files that use the Reverb and Chorus MIDI controllers in them (MICI CC 91 and 93, respectively), as well as any that may use some of the EMU specific NRPN MIDI controllers (most MIDI files won't have these though, as they are an EMU specific sort of thing); e.g. something like this (Note: technical-gobbledygook follows <grin>):

CC - MIDI Controller - Value - Comment
99 - NRPN MSB - 127 - always 127
98 - NRPN LSB - 26 - NRPN Reverb controller
6 - Data MSB - 65 - * see below
38 - Data LSB - 127 - * see below

* = Value for effect amount:

Actual_Value = ((Data_Entry_MSB_# * 128) + Data_Entry_LSB_#) - 8192

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Well I tried rfnagel's GM3 file, but it didn't sound as good.

Bah <LOL>! I suppose it's personal preference, but I've always prefered my SF2's distortion/overdriven guitars and orchestral instruments over Chorium's... then again, I'm a bit biased <grin> 😀

(Edit) P.S.

Over in the "Best GM Synth" thread here in the forums I mentioned some stuff about the bog standard "GM.DLS" file. Read what I posted over there as to the original source of that file.

Now, the Microsoft GS SW Wavetable Synthesizer will never sound close/exactly like a Roland SC-55... mostly due to the MSGSSWWT synth not supporting any effects, but... (AFAIK the X-Fi can do the same as my SBLive!):

The SoundFont Control Panel for the SBLive! (and I'm assuming that thing you're using for the X-Fi as well) can natively load in a Roland DLS format waveset. Load in the WinDoZe bog standard "GM.DLS" file, apply some of the EMU EAX reverb and chorus effects, and WHAMMO! You have a Roland SC-55... or pretty damned close to it 😀

Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel
http://www.richnagel.net

Reply 10 of 42, by Mau1wurf1977

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Another recording!

Raptor Shareware version: http://www.mediafire.com/?beltztcx7momkul

For the EAX stuff in the "Entertainment Mode" of the SFBank Manager, you have "None" checked... I'd reccomend using one of the other options (possibly "Opera" or "Royal" Hall).

Well these options (Opera or Hall) don't do anything which is weird. The only thing that has an impact is the decibel slider. I set to 12dB which is the maximum...

This EAX setting might apply to the wave output I'm not sure. But I couldn't detect a difference between the modes...

Bah <LOL>! I suppose it's personal preference, but I've always prefered my SF2's distortion/overdriven guitars and orchestral instruments over Chorium's... then again, I'm a bit biased <grin>

Hmm might need to test again 🤣

Reply 11 of 42, by Mau1wurf1977

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Did a Doom recording with your SoundFont: http://www.mediafire.com/?ur8gyb4xfub66uz

Could you listen to it and tell me how it compares to your setup?

Hmm it also sounds amazing...

I need to do more listening 🤣 I believe both offer amazing quality...

Reply 12 of 42, by DonutKing

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Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Another recording!

Bah <LOL>! I suppose it's personal preference, but I've always prefered my SF2's distortion/overdriven guitars and orchestral instruments over Chorium's... then again, I'm a bit biased <grin>

Hmm might need to test again 🤣

I really like the percussion in Chorium but yeah, the guitars can sound a bit funny in places...

The most recent Doom recording sounds a bit better I think.

I don't suppose we could get a recording of Duke Nukem 3d theme on the other soundfont to compare as well?

Also I don't think I like the raptor recordings.... it used to have really good music in FM synth but with the soundfont the choir voices sound a bit out of place 🤣

Last edited by DonutKing on 2010-12-30, 06:40. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 13 of 42, by Mau1wurf1977

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I might another one soon with more games. IMO you need a mix of games to get a good impression.

Personally I find that Duke3D tune is the least impressive. But that's just me...

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My YouTube channel

Reply 14 of 42, by keropi

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rfnagel wrote:
keropi wrote:

with the 5.25" panel

I'm guessing that you're refering to the "Live Drive"? I always thought that thing looked EXTREMELY cool and handy... heh, wish I had a free extrenal 5.25" bay in my current rig's case 😀 [...]

yep, this is what my card with it:

2iuuaeu.jpg

I actually got this version for the livedrive , it looks kewl (the remote I never used 🤣)

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Reply 15 of 42, by rfnagel

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Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Did a Doom recording with your SoundFont: http://www.mediafire.com/?ur8gyb4xfub66uz Could you listen to it and tell me how it compares to your setup?

Buddy, I'm on a severely miserable dialup out here in the woods <grin>. If you recorded it from my soundfont, I'm quite sure that it would sound identical though 😀 BTW FYI, *all* of the id Software WAD based games: *None* of the MIDIs for them have reverb or chorus controllers (CC 91 and 93) added to them... @Bobby Prince: :duh:

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Hmm it also sounds amazing... I need to do more listening 🤣 I believe both offer amazing quality...

Try some of the other MIDI packs over at my web page -> http://home.earthlink.net/~richnagel/#midi .

Anyhoo, as far as the EAX thing, I dunno. Attached are pics of what it looks like for SBLive! and Windows XP. (EDIT) OK, I give up on attaching the pic... I always seem to have problems uploading attachments here at Vogons (no matter how small they are), resulting in various server errors and such.

DonutKing wrote:

I really like the percussion in Chorium but yeah, the guitars can sound a bit funny in places... The most recent Doom recording sounds a bit better I think.

Yeah, I never liked the OD/Dist. guitars in Chorium... as mine, well, really rock <grin> 😀 Same with the Duke3D main tune "Grab Bag".

keropi wrote:

I actually got this version for the livedrive , it looks kewl (the remote I never used 🤣)

That looks GREAT! 😀 Love that remote with the Live! Drive 😀

Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel
http://www.richnagel.net

Reply 16 of 42, by elfuego

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Chorium is indeed a very nice sf, but its as old as AWE32 itself. For a modern sound card, SGM-V2.01 is a sound font to use. Please try it out and post your experience 😉
http://www.geocities.jp/shansoundfont/
Believe me - duke sounds MUCH better (others I dont know, havent tried).

...but I still prefer Roland to any sound font.

P.S. Happy new Year!!! 😀

Reply 17 of 42, by elfuego

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You could also try the a340 sound font - a lot of people loves it:

http://www.sf2midi.com/soundfonts/file-detail … 0-sf2-1211.html
Edit:
For all others that want to try out these sound fonts, but dont have a creative card use timidity++ instead. The instructions can be found here:
http://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?t=5346

Reply 18 of 42, by Mau1wurf1977

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Thanks!

I will try out SGM-V2.01. Someone from queststudios recommended me to try out GeneralUser_GS_1.43-Live-Audigy.

Will do some recordings as well of course 🤣

EDIT:

Ok here is a recording with SGM-V2.01. The file is huge. 237MB 🤣

Sounds amazing no doubt. IMO all of these SoundFonts sound amazing. They all have subtle differences so it's really hard to pick your favorite.

Bottom line is that any of these SoundFonts will give you amazing General Midi DOSBox sound.

Here is the recording with a bunch of games: http://www.mediafire.com/?r55f23c2ejovg2p

Reply 19 of 42, by rfnagel

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elfuego wrote:

Chorium is indeed a very nice sf, but its as old as AWE32 itself.

Actually, the latest version of Chorium (available from Ian Luck's web site -> http://www.un4seen.com/xmplay.html#plugins ) isn't all that old... IIRC the beginning of 2007 or so.

As far as a Roland, heh, I _still_ say that I can give it a run for it's money with my custom SoundFont <grin>. Just the other day I was playing the Warcraft II MIDIs with my SoundFont on my SBLive! and comparing them to the Redbook audio tracks on the WC2 CD (IIRC originally recorded from a Roland SC-88 Pro) 😀

elfuego wrote:

For all others that want to try out these sound fonts, but dont have a creative card use timidity++ instead.

Hehe, most anyone who knows me here knows that constantly plug "XMPlay" and it's SoundFont compatable MIDI plugin: http://www.cmoo.com/snor/weeds/SoundFonts/XMPlay/XMPlay.htm / http://www.un4seen.com/xmplay.html / http://www.un4seen.com/download.php?xmplay36 / http://www.un4seen.com/download.php?xmp-midi ... IMHO, the best sounding SoundFont MIDI player hands down, with the closest sound to real EMU hardware 😀

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Someone from queststudios recommended me to try out GeneralUser_GS_1.43-Live-Audigy.

GUGS is a pretty good SoundFont... I downloaded that one a few months ago, and it sounded pretty good 😀

Rich ¥Weeds¥ Nagel
http://www.richnagel.net