Looks like a pretty comprehensive list to me. Between Roland MT-32, OPL, and Roland GS for music, and 8- and 16-bit SoundBlaster for audio, there are only a handful of DOS games that may not run to their full audio potential.

I have heard that the GUS is essential if you're into old demos, as it seems to have been very popular in that scene due to its ability to mix multiple digitized samples in hardware.

I would also recommend an ISA, non-PnP SB16 as a viable replacement for either the SBPro, or even the AWE32 if you have a good daugtherboard for MIDI. I haven't encountered any DOS games that could use dual-OPL2 for stereo MIDI but could not do the same on an OPL3 (although I admit that it's not something I thoroughly explored).

Questions:
- I didn't know there were multiple revisions of the MT-32, much less that they were significant in terms of output quality. Can you elaborate? Also, how can I tell which revision my MT-32 is?
- Are you actually able to place the LAPC-I in a mode in which it will only produce the sounds that the MT-32 is not capable of, so that the two may be used in concert? Or did you mean to suggest that the user could use the MT-32 for all games except those that have support for additional LAPC-I features, in which case the LAPC-I would be manually selected instead?

- I didn't know there were multiple revisions of the MT-32, much less that they were significant in terms of output quality. Can you elaborate? Also, how can I tell which revision my MT-32 is?

Here are some links that show the latest thought on this subject and how to distinguish an MT-32 (it's more than the mic jack):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT-32
http://www.queststudios.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1796
http://www.queststudios.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1621

- Are you actually able to place the LAPC-I in a mode in which it will only produce the sounds that the MT-32 is not capable of, so that the two may be used in concert? Or did you mean to suggest that the user could use the MT-32 for all games except those that have support for additional LAPC-I features, in which case the LAPC-I would be manually selected instead?

Trying to restrict the LAPC to the extra sound effects would be difficult at best. The second idea is what I had in mind, far more practical and can be accomplished with a simple audio selector.

I have heard that the GUS is essential if you're into old demos, as it seems to have been very popular in that scene due to its ability to mix multiple digitized samples in hardware.

I would also recommend an ISA, non-PnP SB16 as a viable replacement for either the SBPro, or even the AWE32 if you have a good daugtherboard for MIDI. I haven't encountered any DOS games that could use dual-OPL2 for stereo MIDI but could not do the same on an OPL3 (although I admit that it's not something I thoroughly explored).

The GUS is indispensable for demos, but for commercial games few ever pushed the card to its strengths. It seems that most cards tried to make it work as a Sound Blaster clone. More importantly, it and the Sound Blaster compete for the same scarce resources. I would keep to the Classic and the Max/Extreme and stay away from the Ace or the PnP.

Programming Dual OPL2 chips vs. OPL3 for stereo is different enough that its quite possible that programs exist that will only work on OPL2 chips.

Interesting links, thanks. Also, sounds like I must have a first generation MT-32, as it only has L/R mono phono jacks for audio outputs.

HunterZ wrote:

I have heard that the GUS is essential if you're into old demos, as it seems to have been very popular in that scene due to its ability to mix multiple digitized samples in hardware.

Yeah, since almost all classic scene demos used Amiga-style tracker music, the GUS was very much used during the DOS era. Many groups didn't even bother to support other cards, because on a GUS it was easier to do, sounded much better than software mixing and didn't hog much CPU time.

Great Hierophant wrote:

The GUS is indispensable for demos, but for commercial games few ever pushed the card to its strengths. It seems that most cards tried to make it work as a Sound Blaster clone. More importantly, it and the Sound Blaster compete for the same scarce resources. I would keep to the Classic and the Max/Extreme and stay away from the Ace or the PnP.

Sadly, not many games use the GF1 capabilities for digital soundeffects, most of them just take it for wavetable music and only use the default MIDI patch set. If a game provides more support (multichannel effects, custom patches), the result can sound very nice. However, the classic GUS cards only support 1 MB of sample RAM, and many of those were equipped with less, this and the lack of reverb effects made it difficult to make it sound better than a SCB-55 or SW50XG.
If you use a GUS together with a real SB, it doesn't need the same resources and will work with just one IRQ, DMA and base address. Actually, the GUS ACE is the best card for this purpose, it only consists of the GF1 chip and the RAM, it has nothing else to conflict with other soundcards.

I am torn between the Sound Blaster 16 + Goldfinch AWE Upgrade, and the AWE64 Gold. Lets examine each in turn:

The Sound Blaster 16 is at the heart of both of the more advanced devices. But you have to choose your Sound Blaster 16s carefully. I would stick with the original model, the CT-1740 with the Panasonic CD Interface. These are easy to find. They use a true Yamaha OPL3 chip, whereas some Sound Blaster 16s and almost all later Sound Blasters use a knockoff or integrate it into larger ICs. The CT-1740 comes with a Waveblaster Connector and a socket for the ASP/CSP chip (occassionally soldered in), should you desire one, but for gaming it is unnecessary. You can use a Goldfinch AWE32 Upgrade Card, which takes a separate ISA slot and contains the EMU8000 portion of the AWE32 and is fully upgradeable. The only drawback, besides the extra ISA slot, is that you cannot apply EMU8000 effects to the OPL3 as you can on a real AWE32.

The Sound Blaster AWE64 Gold, the only AWE32/64 worth pursuing, cuts down drastically on the audio issues of the earlier Sound Blasters. Unfortunately, it lost the Waveblaster connector, the QSound ASP/CSP chip and its Sound Font memory is hard to upgrade. On the other hand, no games used the ASP chip and those that took advantage of Sound Font technology aren't likely to go over the 4MB these cards have onboard as that would limit their market significantly. Unlike the AWE32, which supported SPDIF output for the FM Synthesis and EMU8000 chip only, the AWE64 does so for the digitzed sound as well. It really does require Windows to show it at its best as it is Plug'N'Play. It doesn't have the discrete EMU8000 and DAC chip either, but should be fully compatible with the same family of products.

Why no AWE32? Well, the AWE32 does sport a Waveblaster connector and standard SIMM slots, but I don't like them. The audio quality on the AWE64 Gold is far superior, neither sports a true OPL3 chip, the AWE32 has lesser SPDIF functionality and quality than the AWE64 Gold, Sound Font RAM beyond 4MB and QSound aren't very useful for games, and the AWE32 come in innumerable varieties while the Gold is confined to a retail box version. Also, MPU-401 is sometimes buggy with the SB16 and AWE32, but I have heard of no problems with the AWE64 Gold. You know what you are getting with the Gold and if you have an MPU-401AT card like I do, then all your daughterboard problems go away.

In short, here are the benefits and drawbacks of each device:

Sound Blaster 16 + AWE32 Upgrade:
+True Yamaha OPL3 Chip
+True EMU8000 Chipset
+ASP Chip or Socket
+AWE32 Upgrade board fully upgradeable with SIMMs
+Waveblaster Connector
-Comparatively Poor Audio Quality
-No mixing of OPL3 with EMU8000
-Takes up two ISA slots

Sound Blaster AWE32/Sound Blaster 32
+True EMU8000 Chipset
+ASP Chip or Socket
+AWE32 Upgrade board fully upgradeable with SIMMs
+Waveblaster Connector
+Use EMU8000 effects with OPL3
+Comes with 512KB of Sound Font RAM/Fully Upgradeable to 28MB
+SPDIF Connector
-Variable Audio Quality/Somewhat better Sound Quality w/Vibra Chip
-Innumerable varieties
-No true OPL3 chip/True OPL3 only with Vibra Chip

Sound Blaster AWE64 Gold
+Use EMU8000 effects with OPL3
+4MB Sound Font RAM on Board
+Best Audio Quality
+SPDIF Connector
+No variations
-No true OPL3 chip
-No ASP Chip or Socket
-No true EMU8000 Chipset
-Upgradeable with Proprietary Sound Modules
-No Waveblaster Connector

Comments:

About 5 or 6 years ago I bought a mint-condition ISA SB16 from an online vendor. I'd have to check, but I think it was an SB16 ASP (can't remember the model number). I do remember that it definitely has a very small Yamaha OPL3 chip on-board.

I find it interesting that you would choose the AWE64 Gold over an AWE32, as I've only heard opposing opinions in the past. I inherited an AWE64 Gold not long after I purchased the SB16 and haven't used it much (it's laying around for if/when I ever get around to building a dedicated DOS machine). I do remember having trouble getting the DOS drivers to work for it, as I was trying to run with MS-DOS 7.0 at the time (from a Win98SE installation, I believe), which caused the drivers to refuse to run due to their belief that Windows was installed.

In any case, now that I own an MT-32 and SC-88 I'd probably use those for DOS MIDI anyways. Which of the SB16 and AWE64 Gold would be a better choice as an MPU-401 interface? I'd probably rather use the SB16 because then I'd have an OPL3 chip for the few games that don't support MIDI synths (e.g. Apogee games)

Edit: I was just reading that the ASP chip was basically a market flop. Are you aware of any interesting games or applications that take advantage of it?

I know of no game or applications that take advantage of the ASP except for Creative's own. There is always a possibility that a game that does exist that takes advantage of it.

For DOS Game midi, you should use a Roland GS Sound Canvas Device, whether it is an ISA card, Waveblaster daughterboard, PCMCIA card, Sound Module or Synthesizer. Failing that, you should turn to Yamaha's XG Sound Devices, whatever you can find. Creative's midi solutions should be a distant third.

I shy from fully endorsing the Sound Blaster 16's Midi Interface, as there were some bugs with some revisions of the DSP chips found on the 16 and AWE32. that cause stuttering playback. However, I am more fortunate than most in that I can utilize the MPU-401 interfaces of a Roland LAPC-I or a Roland MPU-401AT. I have not read of any problems with the AWE64's version of the interface (both cards implement the same interface on paper), but without the Waveblaster connector I would give the edge to the SB16.

In terms of compatibility, I would stick with an early, non PnP Sound Blaster 16 with the following important chips: a YAC512 (OPL3 DAC), YMF-262 (OPL3), CT1745 (mixer), CT1701 (codec), CT1746 (bus interface), CT1741 (DSP). (The ASP is CT1748 and a socket is included on most Sound Blaster 16's with the other chips mentioned.) The CT-1740, 1750 and 1770 are the earliest cards and all have these chips. These cards are common enough that you can cheaply replace them should they have problems. Then you can add the AWE32 upgrade card should you want that functionality. In fact, I think the combo is best for later DOS games. Add a Gravis Ultrasound or Ultrasound Ace and a Roland MPU-401AT + SCB-55 and put a Yamaha DB-50XG on the Sound Blaster 16 and you would have an incredible sound subsystem.

(Earlier DOS games should use a Roland LAPC-I and a Sound Blaster Pro 1.0, with room for a Game Blaster or something exotic.)

In terms of features and sound quality, you can't go wrong with the AWE32 Gold, but it really is a Windows card as you say.

Great Hierophant wrote:

CT1741 (DSP)

Not to add complexity to the subject, but is there a preferred CT1741 DSP? Version 4.12 seems to be fairly common, but there are also earlier (4.0x) and later (4.13) versions.

It's too bad the "best" SB16 isn't for the ISA bus... 😉

Stay away from the 4.11 and 4.12, I have heard that these ones are buggy with the daughterboard. They tend to be the ones on a Sound Blaster 16 SCSI-2, which is what I have... (It came new in box with all the manuals and software and a soldered in ASP chip. A bargain at $50.)

It's too bad the "best" SB16 isn't for the ISA bus... Wink

I assume you are referring to DOSBox's emulation...

Great Hierophant wrote:

Stay away from the 4.11 and 4.12, I have heard that these ones are buggy with the daughterboard. They tend to be the ones on a Sound Blaster 16 SCSI-2, which is what I have... (It came new in box with all the manuals and software and a soldered in ASP chip. A bargain at $50.)

Hrm. I have 4.12 DSPs on mine as well.

It's too bad the "best" SB16 isn't for the ISA bus... Wink

I assume you are referring to DOSBox's emulation...

CT2720 w/ASP and YM2203.

CT2720 w/ASP and YM2203.

That is a very nice card, but as it is for the NEC PC9801, its beyond our use. Why include the YM2203, which I understand is a combination of the PSG capabilities of the AY-3-8910 (MSX/Spectrum) and FM capabilities of the YM-2612 (Sega Genesis)?

Great Hierophant wrote:

CT2720 w/ASP and YM2203.

That is a very nice card, but as it is for the NEC PC9801, its beyond our use. Why include the YM2203, which I understand is a combination of the PSG capabilities of the AY-3-8910 (MSX/Spectrum) and FM capabilities of the YM-2612 (Sega Genesis)?

The YM2203 provides compatibility with the NEC PC-9801-86 board, which is more-or-less the PC88/98 standard. I've read that the YM2203 was very common in arcade games, which would have allowed for perfect PC ports.

If you consider the number of arcade games that used the YM2203, YM3812, YM3526, YMF262, AY-3-891x, YM2149, Q-Sound or 8/16-bit DACs, you have a real workhorse of a arcade emulator board. That board can duplicate the sound of any of those chips.

I should edit my comparisons somewhat. It appears that the Sound Blaster 16 and the Sound Blaster AWE32 often suffer from a bug in the DSP versions. This bug causes stalls and hanging notes with Waveblaster-compatible daughterboards. There is no software cure or workaround. Some versions of the DSP suffer from it and others do not, so its a real crapshoot whether your particular board will suffer from the problem. In addition, the Sound Blaster AWE32 Upgrade's audio routing cable isn't designed to work with Sound Blaster 16 cards but the functionally challenged versions found on the motherboards.

In short, the early Sound Blaster 16s (i.e. CT-1740) offers a true Yamaha YMF-262 OPL chip at the expense of EMU8000 and Sound Font functionality. Early Sound Blaster AWE32s (i.e. CT-2760) offer EMU8000 and Sound Font functionality but ditch a true Yamaha OPL3 chip. (There is a distinct OPL chip from Creative, which must integrate the functionality of the CT-1746 Bus Interface chip and is used on later 16's and many AWE32s.) The sound quality on an AWE32 is better than the 16's but is less than perfect. AWE32s are more likely to come with ASP chips if that is important to you.

Is there much of a point to the Soundfont capabilities of an AWE32 if you plan to use a daughterboard for MIDI?

It also sounds like noone would miss not having an ASP chip.

Is there much of a point to the Soundfont capabilities of an AWE32 if you plan to use a daughterboard for MIDI?

The daughterboard is an optional device and an added expense. As the MPU-401 midi interface may or may not be reliable on any important Creative Labs Sound Blaster, the Soundfont capabilities become more important. No one would miss the ASP chip until somebody discovered a game that uses it. Plug'n'Play AWE32s probably don't suffer from the Waveblaster problem, as they were made later and by that time CL had been apprised of the issue from numerous sources. They are annoying because you have to initialize their settings every time upon bootup, however.

I read somewhere that DOS Games cannot or do not take advantage of the AWE32's RAM Bank technology. In that case, the need for an AWE32 doesn't exist unless you also wish to use Windows games.

For the Gravis Ultrasound, there are five varieties to choose from, the Classic, the MAX, the ACE, the Extreme and the PnP. I would stay away from the Extreme and the PnP. Both have a Soundblaster-compatible codec, which can conflict with an actual Sound Blaster card. The PnP is also hampered by the lack of a true GF1 chip. While the Classic, Ace and Max all support 1MB of sample RAM, the Classic requires an extremely rare daughterboard for 16-bit recording and the Ace lacks the codec for it. However, the ACE is designed to work with a Sound Blaster and doesn't use the OPL I/O ports, unlike the Classic and Max which do for OPL emulation. Finally, earlier versions of the Classic lack a mixer, which was added with revision 3.7. But, why would you want to use any card that can only record at a maximum of 16bits when even the cheapest motherboard codec today can do 24-bit @ 96kHz?

Using soundfonts with DOS games can be done, but it's not as easy as loading them with a DOS util (at least I never found such a thing.) You need to run the game in Windows 9x cuz that's where you can use Creative's soundfont loader.

Games that use a DOS extender may make it impossible to get wavetable out of a game. I think it makes it impossible to use a daughtercard. I couldn't get my Roland DB to work in some games (some did work). You may get stuck using the onboard ROM or a soundfont (in Win), and the DOS extender-using game must natively support AWE or the card can only act as a SB16. There may be ways around this too though, with emulation software. I dunno.

I have a faint recollection of being able to also set a soundfont in Windows, do a warm reboot (no reset or power off), and then have that soundfont still be on the card in plain DOS.

I really do not like AWEs. Their analog output quality sucks, they pop and crackly cuz of weird hardware problems, and all the crap with DOS extenders is a total pain in the ass.

Honestly a Vortex-based PCI card may be easier to get working. They have DOS support that doesn't need EMM386 (amazing for a PCI card).

Otherwise just get a SB16 or some other ISA card with a waveblaster header.

BTW, all Creative cards Live! and onward can use soundfonts in DOS games from within Windows 9x. The best ones I believe are the original Live! and Live! Value which can use the old VXD Liveware 3 drivers. WDM makes things work less often.

It is beyond question that any game that wants to use the wavetable of the AWE32, by which I mean using the EMU8000 chip and the 1MB of ROM, must either use AWEUTIL or be natively supported. However, the AWE32, like the Sound Blaster 16, has a hardware MPU-401 interface. The Sound Blaster 16 used that interface to communicate with the Waveblaster header and the Gameport connector, so why would the AWE32 be any different? It makes no sense while it makes perfect sense for the EMU8000, which doesn't have a processor that accepts midi commands and tells the chip what to do with them. A Waveblaster daughtercard or an external midi device must have something like that (A Waveblaster II uses a MC68000 to program its EMU8000; a Roland MT-32 uses an Intel 8095 or 8098 microcontroller.)

I take it that DOS games did not load their own sound fonts into the RAM then. I don't understand why, after all the RAM is just as accessible to the game in DOS as it is to the driver in Windows.

As for Sound Blasters, Cloudschatze has done a fine job convincing me of the virtues of the main alternative, the Pro Audio Spectrum 16s.

I am building an intermediate system, ever so slowly. I will consider putting an Aureal SQ2500 PCI card in it, the last card to support A3D. It has a Waveblaster header, and would be an excellent companion to the Monster 3D Voodoo 1 card I am also planning on adding. No EMM386 you say? Take that Creative! But It won't replace a card with a true OPL3, see here: http://www.it-he.org/sound.htm

Yeah I've never heard good OPL3 emulation (other than DOSBOX!). A PAS16 may just be the way to go. I do remember them being rated well, and many games support them natively.

I used to recommend SB16 or the AWEs, but I have spent a lot of time with them now. I have AWE32, SB32, and AWE64. They all work about the same, and all have strange issues and never seem to work quite right. The SB32 and AWE32 both have really poor audio quality, with lots of static and pops/clicks. 🤣 they even distort out sometimes. It's amazing. I am particularly entertained by the port they claim to be a "line out". 😀

I have both a Monster Sound MX300 (Vortex 2) and a Montego A3Dxstream (Vortex 1). Both have the waveblaster header and both worked fine with DOS extender games. I've played Wing Commander 3, TIE FIghter, and Dark Forces on them. With the Roland SCD15 on either the sound is quite nice.

It is still emulation though. The DOS drivers for these PCI cards basically emulate a ISA sound card and forward the commands to the PCI card. Considering how demanding OPL3 emulation is for DOSBOX, I imagine a DOS driver can't go very far with accuracy or it would overwhelm the CPUs (especially at the time these drivers were being developed). A real ISA card is always the way to go if you can find one that actually works well (preferably not PnP).

Part of me just wants my old Sound Blaster Pro back and to have one of those Roland MPU-401AT cards (i think it's called) which is just a ISA card with a waveblaster header!