Quick update. Just found a new interesting read about OS/2.
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
Hi everyone, just found an old bitmap among my backups. I thought it would fit this thread.
- It's a drawing about Windows 3.0, from 1990. By an unknown artist.
Boy, isn't it unbelievable that we have graphical files that date back from before 30 years ago ?
Let's image how things were back then in 1990. The oldest public graphic files were less than 10 years old.
Those copied from public domain diskettes, BBSes or early online services like CompuServe (popular for HiRes and GIF formats).
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
wow what a great thread, weird that its like in parallel to my fun experiments on a PS/2 model 60.
Ive been slowly working on some article on why OS/2 was always doomed to fail, and I lay the blame squarely on the Model 60. On the one hand, it was FAR too expensive, weighing in at a near $6,000 for the new machine. At the same time it's incapable of running OS/2, mostly as the motherboard maxes at 1MB of RAM, and requires RAM expansion boards (thankfully the 60 has plenty of slots) but the fact you have to expand your system, paradoxically means the PS/2 model 60 was also too cheap.
Many people point to the AT (5170) as to some IBM promise, but the PS/2 line was created in an utter panic in 1986 reacting to the coming clone 386 machines, and a quick 1 year knee jerk reaction to losing the PC battle. Launched too early in 1987 with no next gen software the PS/2 model 60 should never have existed. And heck the Model 80 was grossly overpriced, but at least a 32bit machine.
Sigh there is so much to go on, but you've seemed to found a lot of it. There is a fair bit more to go as well, vintage books & magazines help a lot as well, and of course don't forget to check out Windows/286 & Windows/386.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/108471 … tasking-dos.mp4
Windows/286 can multitask very well behaved tiny MS-DOS programs in a window. As you can (hopefully) see a gwbasic programming running, adding a number, while Zork1 runs in the foreground. Very limited by RAM, but still neat!
Windows/386 of course is the mind blowing v86 technology with hard v86 machines! It's great!
neozeed wrote on 2023-10-11, 13:27:Windows/286 can multitask very well behaved tiny MS-DOS programs in a window. As you can (hopefully) see a gwbasic programming running, adding a number, while Zork1 runs in the foreground. Very limited by RAM, but still neat!
Really?
Aren't they native Windows ports in NE executables, rather than pure DOS programs?
Nie tylko, jak widzicie, w tym trudność, że nie zdołacie wejść na moją górę, lecz i w tym, że ja do was cały zejść nie mogę, gdyż schodząc, gubię po drodze to, co miałem donieść.
Grzyb wrote on 2023-10-11, 20:05:neozeed wrote on 2023-10-11, 13:27:Windows/286 can multitask very well behaved tiny MS-DOS programs in a window. As you can (hopefully) see a gwbasic programming running, adding a number, while Zork1 runs in the foreground. Very limited by RAM, but still neat!
Really?
Aren't they native Windows ports in NE executables, rather than pure DOS programs?
Those are MS-DOS programs!
It's like a very much not talked about feature of 2.xx that it can multiask dos. Although it's all got to fit in the 640kb including windows, and text mode, so it's basically .COM files. It's still incredibly neat!
Quick update. Just noticed. Someone has uploaded a video of OS/2 1.3 and WLO two years ago.
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
Another quick update. Found a video about an PC-98 version of OS/2 v1.1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqSoM1TQ9Os
Sorry for letting you wait. This topic/thread isn't dead yet.
I've still some things planned, like exploring networking or running games on OS/2 1.x on vintage PCs.
It's just that my room is in a messy condition and that I haven't enough space to do things properly.
I'll hope that I get things going within a few weeks. Thanks for visiting this thread. 😄
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
Hi everyone, I've found an interesting article about the internals of Windows 3.
It's worth a read, I think! 🙂👍
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
Quick update. There's currently an interesting article about an MIPS emulator for Windows NT in the news.
https://www.x86matthew.com/view_post?id=mips_1
It's not about OS/2 per se, it makes reference to its sibling Windows NT. And Windows 3.1, too.
Since this topic here is about WLO "Willow", an compatibility layer, it's not too unrelated, maybe.
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
I guess if the MIPS emulator is on-topic, then DEC Alpha: https://virtuallyfun.com/2024/02/17/announcin … 1-axp-preview1/
Retro Bytes came out with a long video about OS/2 5 days ago 😀 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3DZJ_LD7F4
davidrg wrote on 2024-02-19, 07:33:I guess if the MIPS emulator is on-topic, then DEC Alpha: https://virtuallyfun.com/2024/02/17/announcin … 1-axp-preview1/
WolverineDK wrote on 2024-02-29, 23:01:Retro Bytes came out with a long video about OS/2 5 days ago 😀 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3DZJ_LD7F4
Thank you guys! ^^
Sorry about the ongoing delay, also.
There are so many little things going on in parallel right now. 😅
The Windows 3.1 emu thread is being neglected, too.
The little 80286 PC for OS/2 is still under construction, weeks ago I had issues with the Gotek floppy emulator.
The one I got was made during pandemic and doesn't have enough RAM to properly handle PC floppy images under Flash Floppy.
So I decided to just scrap the Gotek idea and plan to install a CF to IDE adapter in place of the floppy drive/Gotek.
That way, I can just swap the CF cards more easily, also, which is nice for trying out other OSes (PC-MOS/386, Minix, or Xenix).
Internally, in the chassis, the floppy cable is still being left as is. So I can make a new CF card bootable anytime,
using an external floppy drive (I keep one in the same box were the little PC is going to be stored).
Anyway, I just meant to say that this thread isn't dead yet. 😀
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
Quick update. Found an interesting article/blog entry from a few years ago.: A sneak peak at Microsoft OS/2 2.0
https://virtuallyfun.com/2014/05/09/a-sneak-p … rosoft-os2-2-0/
It shows a preview version of OS/2 2.0 running MS Flight Simulator in a window. In EGA or VGA resolution, it seems.
Also available is a screenshot of Windows/386 running MS Flight Simulator in a windowed session, albeit in monochrome CGA.
This reminds me of neozeed's earlier post here.
Windows 2.x has the ability to pull such stunts on a on a real 8088 system, even, which is remarkable.
The available memory is less here by default (no V86/EMM386-like magic), maybe, but that's another story.
Pictures are visible below, I hope that's okay.
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
Jo22 wrote on 2024-05-26, 23:26:Also available is a screenshot of Windows/386 running MS Flight Simulator in a windowed session, albeit in monochrome CGA. […]
Also available is a screenshot of Windows/386 running MS Flight Simulator in a windowed session, albeit in monochrome CGA.
This reminds me of neozeed's earlier post here.
Windows 2.x has the ability to pull such stunts on a on a real 8088 system, even, which is remarkable.
The available memory is less here by default (no V86/EMM386-like magic), maybe, but that's another story.
But they are different stunts?
Windows/386 uses V86 mode, and there's nothing special about V86 virtual machines running *any* DOS program in a window.
On an 8088, however, it's only possible with software that displays stuff using BIOS/DOS calls only - which pretty much excludes anything graphical.
Nie tylko, jak widzicie, w tym trudność, że nie zdołacie wejść na moją górę, lecz i w tym, że ja do was cały zejść nie mogę, gdyż schodząc, gubię po drodze to, co miałem donieść.
Grzyb wrote on 2024-05-27, 01:45:But they are different stunts?
Yes, that's right.
Grzyb wrote on 2024-05-27, 01:45:Windows/386 uses V86 mode, and there's nothing special about V86 virtual machines running *any* DOS program in a window.
Yes. Windows/386 is similar to Windows 3.0 here.
Grzyb wrote on 2024-05-27, 01:45:On an 8088, however, it's only possible with software that displays stuff using BIOS/DOS calls only - which pretty much excludes anything graphical.
That's were Windows 2.x differs from Windows 3, I believe.
Not sure how to put into words, but Windows 2.x and the Windows 2.x drivers are able to grab/trap video data.
So an DOS application ends up drawing into a window rather than the graphics card.
There's an API function especially for making this possible, I believe. But it's all limited to CGA, I think.
This might also be because CGA is a graphics standard that's below the host's native video standard (such as VGA).
CGA with its tiny 16KB (32KB with duplicate) frame bufffer also fits within a an x86 segment (64KB), so no bank-switching is being needed.
EGA would be much more larger and complicated to support, I suppose. It would also consume more memory.
Another factor is that CGA is part of PC BIOS. So maybe that's why it's a bit special, also.
It's being highly standardized and nearly all applications in the 1980s had supported it, even if it merely was as a fallback.
In addition, many DOS programs did work on pseudo-CGA graphics (no Motorola 6845).
Even without support at the register level, programs usually ran.
That being said, I've seen screenshots of CGA games on Windows 2.x showing alternate CGA palettes..
So I'm not exactly sure how far Windows 2.x exactly goes into simulating CGA to applications.
Hm. That being said, I think on Windows 3.x, we'd talk about a grabber functionality maybe.
Windows 3.x has a grabber driver in system.ini being mentioned.
Sometimes, a 386 grabber is being mentioned, too, for the Enhanced-Mode kernal.
Edit: I would really have to check.. It's early in the morning right now and I'm still a bit sleepy. 😴
Edit: What also comes to mind, both CGA and VGA have an overlap in their frame buffer location (it's backwards compatible to CGA, after all).
A bit similar to how CGA and Hercules do have (under certain circumstances).
So if a Windows VGA driver is written appropriately, it might be possible to have the CGA frame buffer being left untouched.
So there's no actual trapping being needed, maybe. Because there's physical RAM available, I mean.
The CGA application would write into CGA frame buffer as normally, then the Windows driver reads the video data and then Windows 2.x would draw it on screen.
It's just a wild guess, of course. On the other hand, VGA is being very programmable. 🤷♂️
VGA also uses A segment mainly, whereas CGA uses upper end of B segment.
Edit: What's also interesting, Windows 2.x seems to use 8 colours in EGA/VGA, rather than 16 colours.
So maybe this makes it possible to get along with less video memory, not sure. Again, it's just an idea.
Edit: Screenshots attached.
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
Quick update. I'm experimenting a bit with Windows 2.x and windowed DOS programs.
The PIF Editor has a little help system built-in, I've just noticed.
GW-BASIC also runs windowed so far and I can set SCREEN 2.
However, direct screen manipulation seems to be bit of a challenge, still.
I guess compatibility depends on the applications, in question.
Edit: Quick update. Got Zork running, but I think that was already being mentioned by others.
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
Setting "Directly Modifies: Screen" in the PIF editor forces fullscreen.
Windows 1.x and 2.x/286 may run a graphical DOS program in a window, but only if it does everything via INT 10h BIOS calls.
And I bet there's very few programs that do graphics via INT 10h - it only allows to write a single pixel, drawing anything larger is sure to be slooow...
There may be cards that can provide two frame buffers at the same time: A0000..AFFFF (for the system) and B8000..BFFFF (for the DOS program), and that would indeed allow for certain trickery.
But the point is: Windows doesn't do anything like that.
Nie tylko, jak widzicie, w tym trudność, że nie zdołacie wejść na moją górę, lecz i w tym, że ja do was cały zejść nie mogę, gdyż schodząc, gubię po drodze to, co miałem donieść.
Grzyb wrote on 2024-05-27, 07:04:Setting "Directly Modifies: Screen" in the PIF editor forces fullscreen.
Yes. I've noticed, there's a quick description in the help system..
Grzyb wrote on 2024-05-27, 07:04:Windows 1.x and 2.x/286 may run a graphical DOS program in a window, but only if it does everything via INT 10h BIOS calls.
And I bet there's very few programs that do graphics via INT 10h - it only allows to write a single pixel, drawing anything larger is sure to be slooow...
I think same. Your comment about INT10h got me an idea, by the way..
The Namco version of Pac Man is known for doing that. There's a trivia on Mobygames.
https://www.mobygames.com/game/138/pac-man/trivia/
Now while it sadly didn't work as hoped, it does at least run and not crash the "VM".
Instead, the DOS application just keeps running, with the output being limited to the text part.
Grzyb wrote on 2024-05-27, 07:04:There may be cards that can provide two frame buffers at the same time: A0000..AFFFF (for the system) and B8000..BFFFF (for the DOS program), and that would indeed allow for certain trickery.
But the point is: Windows doesn't do anything like that.
Hm. Windows/386 does support windowed CGA applications, at least. 😀
"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel
//My video channel//
The above screenshots are from the /286 version, right?
Nie tylko, jak widzicie, w tym trudność, że nie zdołacie wejść na moją górę, lecz i w tym, że ja do was cały zejść nie mogę, gdyż schodząc, gubię po drodze to, co miałem donieść.
Anyway, it's all well described there - https://gekk.info/articles/dosapps.html
Nie tylko, jak widzicie, w tym trudność, że nie zdołacie wejść na moją górę, lecz i w tym, że ja do was cały zejść nie mogę, gdyż schodząc, gubię po drodze to, co miałem donieść.
