Ideally, if you plan on running Win95 you should go for a first gen. Pentium 90-thru-233mhz/.
This will allow you to play movies and MP3 better than the 486 or 586

mockingbird wrote on 2023-09-28, 21:01:

I disagree... ISA only is for 386 builds... For 486 you should use a VLB build. Ideally you want a graphics adapter that will tolerate 0WS, and a Cyrix 5x86 is the icing on the cake, which will allow you to alternate between a fast 486 and a slow 486 with SETMUL.

Mmmm... Well, if we wanna be very picky with our tastes, ideally, my ideal 386 would have EISA 😉

matze79 wrote on 2023-09-28, 21:06:

hm depends on what you play.
320x200 @256 Colors needs only around ~ 2Mbyte/s throughput for fluid playing.

i played Terminator Futureshock with GD5424 ISA Card just fine on AM5x86 133Mhz without L2 Cache.

ISA stinks. Unless you're building a very slow system (like a 286 or a low MHz 386 SX), which will necessarily be always stuck with low demanding software and games, if you're going to build a PC that can potentially run software and games of better quality, even if 'at the moment' you only plan to play at 320x200 @256 colors, still you don't wanna tie you to a ISA card too much. One day you might decide 'heck, since I have this 486, lemme install more stuff... lemme increase the resolution in this and this game....'

AppleSauce wrote on 2023-09-28, 22:44:

A couple of years ago I actually had one of those motherboards in a system I found on the side of the road , but I sold the system since I didn't know what it was worth at the time.

Its configuration had a pci video card in it so I guess nobody bothered using the vlb.

20181130_105332-1.jpg

Oh my goodness!!!! 😳 Finding one of those beauties ON THE STREET!!! Just like that!!! That's pure Santa Claus!!! I crave and dream about those things, literally I 'dream' that I get in a company or store or organization and I find a large room full of those old beige PCs... That's a gift from above!

rmay635703 wrote on 2023-09-28, 22:54:

My cheap computer shopper AMD 5x86 system supposedly had 60ns EDO, a 1.2gb HD and a mid range PCI graphics card (2mb) forgetting the exact model, might have even had very mediocre 3D acceleration.

XING MPEG acceleration and software was a selling point.

Was a nice rig but came with the PCCHIPS motherboard which developed bad serial ports so I ended up installing an antique serial card

Nice rig!

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-09-28, 23:45:

AppleSauce wrote on 2023-09-28, 22:44:

A couple of years ago I actually had one of those motherboards in a system I found on the side of the road , but I sold the system since I didn't know what it was worth at the time.

That's the Asus PVI-486SP3 motherboard I posted earlier.

Recent Ebay sales have this board going for around $300 USD.

Yeah! That's why God never allows me to win a lottery. I'd buy the world!

Jo22 wrote on 2023-09-28, 23:50:

There's also another factor. With PCI came technologies like the Pentium (586), Plug&Play BIOS and ACPI and APIC. […]
Show full quote

There's also another factor.
With PCI came technologies like the Pentium (586), Plug&Play BIOS and ACPI and APIC.

The 486 platform with ISA or ISA+VLB thus is the last "pure" PC/AT generation with maximum compatibility to the DOS world.

While later board generations can of course still run DOS and games, they're nolonger focusing on the standards of the DOS days (and Windows 3.x days, thus) but those of the Windows 95 days.

You'll notice this when you're trying to run very picky OSes from the late 80s, who made very strict assumptions on the underlying hardware.
Like an old copy of Unix/Xenix or OS/2.

Anyway, this is just a reminder. A 486 board which has PCI "tacked on" (attached via VLB), it may look like an ordinary 486 board to software - with the exception to the additional PCI support via BIOS.

Good points actually! You know, you just made me realize that, in the background processes of my mind, I've always had this kind of 'assessment' going on, about what would be the 'ideal' 486 PC, specs, mobo... not just ideal performance-wise, but also time-correct, the perfect 'time' feeling, that kind of stuff... I don't know exactly how to express this in English (for sure there's some slang or colloquialism or specific expression I am not aware of). And you made me realize that the bus choice, whether VLB or PCI (heck, even EISA!) is a difficult one. Your points just helped me to clear this up. And, yes, actually, the perfect REAL 486 has VLB, not PCI. And you can play around more with clock speeds and stuff... Well, ideally ideally, it would be an EISA+VLB instead of ISA+VLB. Although, with VLB slots available, I doubt one will ever use or even need the increased EISA speeds (increased if compared to ISA). The only non-VLB cards anybody might want to use are either simple cards like additional serial ports, modem, kind of stuf that works perfectly on ISA and will never saturate it, or, even if they're 'heavier' data-wise (like a video import card or a TV card or whatever), I doubt they ever existed in EISA versions. But I digress...

Horun wrote on 2023-09-29, 02:10:

Yeah 486 with PCI is garbage IMHO and just cobbled together to say "hey look what we have". 🤣

Which just confirmed what I wrote right above your comment here ↑↑

mockingbird wrote on 2023-09-29, 00:28:

One thing I dislike about PCI on a 486 is the inability to use your own IDE controller (unless it has its own boot ROM). You're stuck with your motherboard's IDE implementation. With VLB, the IDE part is controlled through the BIOS and with a driver. When PCI IDE is not implemented properly in the BIOS, the speeds can be very slow, much slower than a good VLB drive.

Ha! This is interesting and I didn't know this... mmm... how can one know if a PCI IDE controller has a boot ROM?
If you're stuck with the mobo's IDE implementation, how about installing a tiny drive or, even better, SD card merely as a BOOT drive (literally, only the boot files), and then install EVERYTHING else (including the DOS directory) on a D: drive (obviously some sort of solid state one) connected to the PCI controller?

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2023-09-29, 07:16:

Ideally, if you plan on running Win95 you should go for a first gen. Pentium 90-thru-233mhz/.
This will allow you to play movies and MP3 better than the 486 or 586

Absolutely. No Win95 on a 486... (although, now that I think of it, my very first experience with Win 95 was when I installed its super crappy beta version "Chicago" on my 486 DX 33)
Still, I'd use (if I had free time to configure them) MS-DOS 6.22 + WfW 3.11 even on a first Pentium...

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-29, 08:06:

Ha! This is interesting and I didn't know this... mmm... how can one know if a PCI IDE controller has a boot ROM?
If you're stuck with the mobo's IDE implementation, how about installing a tiny drive or, even better, SD card merely as a BOOT drive (literally, only the boot files), and then install EVERYTHING else (including the DOS directory) on a D: drive (obviously some sort of solid state one) connected to the PCI controller?

You'll see an EEPROM, either DIP or PLCC on the controller card. AFAIK, what you suggest won't work. Unless there's a DOS driver for a ROM-less controller, DOS won't see it.

I do have a controller with a ROM on my Shuttle HOT-433 because the onboard IDE is very slow. It works well for the most part, aside from the longer boot time while the controller initializes the drive and the odd quirkiness of when it doesn't detect it and the computer has to be reset, but I'll be switching back to a VLB build because there's no benefit with this setup, other than the PCI VGA card. But if you can afford a good VLB VGA card, then do that instead.

mockingbird wrote on 2023-09-29, 13:17:

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-29, 08:06:

Ha! This is interesting and I didn't know this... mmm... how can one know if a PCI IDE controller has a boot ROM?
If you're stuck with the mobo's IDE implementation, how about installing a tiny drive or, even better, SD card merely as a BOOT drive (literally, only the boot files), and then install EVERYTHING else (including the DOS directory) on a D: drive (obviously some sort of solid state one) connected to the PCI controller?

You'll see an EEPROM, either DIP or PLCC on the controller card. AFAIK, what you suggest won't work. Unless there's a DOS driver for a ROM-less controller, DOS won't see it.

I do have a controller with a ROM on my Shuttle HOT-433 because the onboard IDE is very slow. It works well for the most part, aside from the longer boot time while the controller initializes the drive and the odd quirkiness of when it doesn't detect it and the computer has to be reset, but I'll be switching back to a VLB build because there's no benefit with this setup, other than the PCI VGA card. But if you can afford a good VLB VGA card, then do that instead.

Gotcha, thanks!

I thought it was only a 'boot' problem, that's why I suggested the above.

And, what do you mean with "good" VLB VGA card?

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-29, 13:30:

Gotcha, thanks!

I thought it was only a 'boot' problem, that's why I suggested the above.

And, what do you mean with "good" VLB VGA card?

Depends on your budget...

With Cirrus Logic - GD-5428 or better - but these cards will not tolerate 0WS, and they are only mediocre performance-wise with Windows 3.xx. A perfectly good choice for most people.

If you can find and afford one, the S3 86C764/86C765 (or 86C965 - but NOT the 86C805) is the best choice, and they say it tolerates 0ws. Alternatively, you can build an 86C325 86C765 board by scavenging a chip off a PCI card, but good luck getting a hold of a blank PCB.

mockingbird wrote on 2023-09-29, 13:44:

Depends on your budget... […]
Show full quote

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-29, 13:30:

Gotcha, thanks!

I thought it was only a 'boot' problem, that's why I suggested the above.

And, what do you mean with "good" VLB VGA card?

Depends on your budget...

With Cirrus Logic - GD-5428 or better - but these cards will not tolerate 0WS, and they are only mediocre performance-wise with Windows 3.xx. A perfectly good choice for most people.

If you can find and afford one, the S3 86C764/86C765 (or 86C965 - but NOT the 86C805) is the best choice, and they say it tolerates 0ws. Alternatively, you can build an 86C325 board buy scavenging a chip off a PCI card, but good luck getting a hold of a blank PCB.

😳 wow one can even do that???!!! How I wish I was able to do build something like that!!!

S3 764 / 765 / 965 ??? I never ever heard of those! Perhaps, do you mean 864, 928, 968?

Past M919 sufferer here. i've had problems with the VLB when running 40mhz (for 120mhz/160mhz) so I stuck with PCI. One too-colorful Tseng VLB and one short-lived Cirrus VLB had been through and the S3 Trio64V+ PCI was the final video card it had. Still the fastest 486 i've ever used despite the lack of cache. Win95's fine on it.

A Voodoo2 is fine too.

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-29, 14:10:

😳 wow one can even do that???!!! How I wish I was able to do build something like that!!!

S3 764 / 765 / 965 ??? I never ever heard of those! Perhaps, do you mean 864, 928, 968?

The gist of it is, any "Trio" (or Virge for that matter which only exists as a userbase newly-made product) VLB variant... Yes, also the 864/868 and 964/968. The exception might be the Trio32 (86C732) which seems to be only half as fast in Windows 3.x. But don't obsess over it... Just get anything half-decent.

aries-mu wrote on 2023-09-29, 08:06:

ISA stinks. Unless you're building a very slow system (like a 286 or a low MHz 386 SX), which will necessarily be always stuck with low demanding software and games, if you're going to build a PC that can potentially run software and games of better quality, even if 'at the moment' you only plan to play at 320x200 @256 colors, still you don't wanna tie you to a ISA card too much. One day you might decide 'heck, since I have this 486, lemme install more stuff... lemme increase the resolution in this and this game....'

i would not even play any Super VGA Title on a 486.
486 just stinks for HighRes Graphics.
Its too slow for SVGA.
No SVGA Game with 3D does make really Fun on a 486.
Maybe back in the Day it was ok to struggle at 10-20fps.

But for today i just would take a decent Pentium with 200Mhz+
No Compromisses at all.

So don`t care about expensive "Fast VLB Cards" to get 3 fps more.
Just grab Pentium+ and Decent SVGA PCI Graphics.

matze79 wrote on 2023-09-29, 19:39:

So don`t care about expensive "Fast VLB Cards" to get 3 fps more.
Just grab Pentium+ and Decent SVGA PCI Graphics.

You're right... A Pentium MMX has excellent hardware throttling and is a lot more economical than a 486... Intel TX also has PIIX4, so you get UDMA2 as well (HX, FX, and VX only do PIO or possibly MWDMA).

Still, I prefer the Cyrix 5x86... I just alternate between Setmul 1 and Setmul 3 for 486/DX-33 and a very fast 486 for Doom and such.

But a lot more expensive as you say than a Pentium.

matze79 wrote on 2023-09-29, 19:39:

i would not even play any Super VGA Title on a 486.
486 just stinks for HighRes Graphics.
Its too slow for SVGA.

Hadn't stopped Simcity 2000 and Myst from selling...

matze79 wrote on 2023-09-29, 19:39:

No SVGA Game with 3D does make really Fun on a 486.
Maybe back in the Day it was ok to struggle at 10-20fps.

10-20 would be *very* high numbers for a 486.
i don't think anyone was doing that in its day especially as the early SVGA 3D games weren't very optimized in the first place (USNF, WC3, Dawn Patrol, PCPBench, etc) and aren't much better on a Pentium either.

The problem with VLB controllers is the drivers only support hard drives up to 420mb.
I think if you use a CF card and don’t load the VLB Drivers you might be able to get around this limitation
With good performance benchmarks. Or if you use Win95 instead of Win3x.

I compared my VLB 486dx4-100 computer against someone on this forum with a 486 PCI motherboard
With similar specs and the PCI motherboard was faster.
About 10% faster in CPU benchmarks and 15% faster in graphics.
No only that but they have a Newer bios that supports larger capacity hard drives and faster RAM
And More ram. the ISA/VLB motherboard is limited to 32mb where the PCI motherboard can support up to 64mb of RAM.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2023-09-30, 00:23:

The problem with VLB controllers is the drivers only support hard drives up to 420mb.
I think if you use a CF card and don’t load the VLB Drivers you might be able to get around this limitation

I'm using a VLB controller w/ drivers with a 512MB CF card. Haven't noticed any issues.

Performance tests indicate much faster disk access than without drivers.

And More ram. the ISA/VLB motherboard is limited to 32mb where the PCI motherboard can support up to 64mb of RAM.

For 486 era computers and most applications (esp. under DOS) anything over 16 MB isn't really needed. Even 8 MB is enough in most cases.

For anyone who needs a PCI-based system, 32+ MB of RAM and is concerned about performance, just get a Pentium. There isn't much point to running a 486 at that point.

matze79 wrote on 2023-09-29, 19:39:

i would not even play any Super VGA Title on a 486.
486 just stinks for HighRes Graphics.
Its too slow for SVGA.

Depends on the games. Legend Entertainment games (Gateway, etc.) and Settlers run fine on my 486 DX-33 in SVGA in my experience.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2023-09-30, 00:23:

The problem with VLB controllers is the drivers only support hard drives up to 420mb.
I think if you use a CF card and don’t load the VLB Drivers you might be able to get around this limitation

I'm using a VLB controller on 486 with a CF card. It has multiple 2Gb partitions. With or without drivers working perfectly. If there is a limit it is probably caused by the bios not the controller.

Yes 420mb was the hard drive capacity limit back in 1993 motherboards bios and Win3x drivers.
I am using a Cirrus logic x5429 VLB controller and and the default driver limit is 420mb hard drive
I don't know if there is a newer driver some where ?

Tl:dr

Was there ever a pci/vlb/eisa combo board?

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-09-30, 00:48:

I'm using a VLB controller w/ drivers with a 512MB CF card. Haven't noticed any issues. […]
Show full quote

I'm using a VLB controller w/ drivers with a 512MB CF card. Haven't noticed any issues.

Performance tests indicate much faster disk access than without drivers.

And More ram. the ISA/VLB motherboard is limited to 32mb where the PCI motherboard can support up to 64mb of RAM.

For 486 era computers and most applications (esp. under DOS) anything over 16 MB isn't really needed. Even 8 MB is enough in most cases.

For anyone who needs a PCI-based system, 32+ MB of RAM and is concerned about performance, just get a Pentium. There isn't much point to running a 486 at that point.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2023-09-30, 00:23:

I compared my VLB 486dx4-100 computer against someone on this forum with a 486 PCI motherboard With similar specs and the PCI mo […]
Show full quote

I compared my VLB 486dx4-100 computer against someone on this forum with a 486 PCI motherboard
With similar specs and the PCI motherboard was faster.
About 10% faster in CPU benchmarks and 15% faster in graphics.
No only that but they have a Newer bios that supports larger capacity hard drives and faster RAM
And More ram. the ISA/VLB motherboard is limited to 32mb where the PCI motherboard can support up to 64mb of RAM.

I put 64 MB RAM on a Compaq Prolinea 4/66 and it worked like a charm. It's a 3xISA only slots system 🤣. I did try going above 64 MB, but Himem was acting.

Sphere478 wrote on 2023-09-30, 08:02:

Tl:dr

Was there ever a pci/vlb/eisa combo board?

Now that would be an intriguing and peculiar creature! 😳

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2023-09-30, 07:24:

Yes 420mb was the hard drive capacity limit back in 1993 motherboards bios and Win3x drivers.
I am using a Cirrus logic x5429 VLB controller and and the default driver limit is 420mb hard drive
I don't know if there is a newer driver some where ?

I did 2GB partitions on my 486 (VL/I-486SV2GX4) with a VLB IDE card and DOS 6.22 without issues... I could have used larger partitions, but I wanted to stick with DOS 6.22 for Windows 3.xx compatibility.