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No DirectSound3D for Vista

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First post, by DosFreak

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http://www.openal.org/openal_vista.html

DirectSound3D on Windows Vista […]
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DirectSound3D on Windows Vista

With Microsoft's decision to remove the audio hardware layer in Windows Vista, legacy DirectSound 3D games will no longer use hardware 3D algorithms for audio spatialization. Instead they will have to rely upon the new Microsoft software mixer that is built into Windows Vista. This new software mixer will give the users basic audio support for their old Direct Sound games but since it has no hardware layer, all EAX® effects will be lost, and no individual per-voice processing can be performed using dedicated hardware processing.

EAX has become the de facto standard for real-time effects processing. It has been incorporated in hundreds of games and has become the method of choice for game developers wanting to add interactive environment effects to their titles. Some of the best selling games of all time use the EAX extensions to DirectSound 5.0 and beyond, including Warcraft3, Diablo2, World of Warcraft, Half Life, Ghost Recon, F.E.A.R. and many others. Under Windows Vista, these games will be losing the hardware support that came as standard under the previous Windows Operating Systems, and will no longer provide real-time interactive effects, making them sound empty and lifeless by comparison to the way they sound on Windows XP.

In some cases, where a game specifically looks for a hardware audio path, it may even fall back to plain stereo output. This will be a very different landscape for 3D audio than the one that both Creative Labs and Aureal Technologies® pioneered 8 years ago. Both companies dedicated hardware power to rendering increasing numbers of 3D voices, with each voice taking full advantage of HRTF (Head Related Transfer Function) technology, wave tracing and other advanced processing. With the native Windows Vista audio APIs, all this advanced, hardware-based 3D audio processing will be inaccessible. Instead, basic mapping to a generic speaker placement scheme will be employed, and all interactive processing and rendering will be dependent on the host CPU. While it is true that CPUs continue to get faster, the Vista audio architecture intentionally simplifies things, such that the potential processing load for multiple 3D voices is limited. Inevitably there is a tradeoff. This will be especially true for gamers that have come to depend on the kind of high-end 3D audio experience available from products like the SoundBlaster X-Fi, with its advanced headphone 3D audio processing and dedicated hardware DSP effects. For gamers this would be the most noticeable loss in Windows Vista, and it would be a definite step backwards for PC gaming audio if developers only had the option of using native Windows Vista audio APIs. However, they do have a legitimate, proven alternative in OpenAL.

I've been meaning to list the different audio support for games in my PC Game Compatibility list but there's been so much other stuff to worry about. Sigh. Mabye the next generation of virtualization products will include the ability to run D3D games (most D3D games use DirectSound3D), so we can then run 2000/XP in virtualization on Vista.....

Until then, if you like to play old games...and if you can only use or like to use DirectSound3D then you'll need to keep your XP install around.

So a modern hardcore PC gamer will NEED:
Linux
XP
Vista

on their computer to play all of their games to their full potential.

It's going to be fun when I get around to doing Vista game compatibility testing and filling in all of those yellow "P" Games with Problems boxes (for games that only support EAX using DirectSound3D). 😁

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Reply 1 of 31, by SysGOD

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OMFG! that is definitely a step in the wrong direction for M$.
but good to hear that openal is working with vista.

anyway still another point on my growing "why i dont want to buy vista" list... 😈

Reply 3 of 31, by DosFreak

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They run just fine. Just no fancy "3d" desktop while running OGL progs in windowed mode.

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Reply 4 of 31, by Great Hierophant

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DosFreak wrote:
So a modern hardcore PC gamer will NEED: Linux XP Vista […]
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So a modern hardcore PC gamer will NEED:
Linux
XP
Vista

on their computer to play all of their games to their full potential.

Why does a modern hardcore PC gamer need Linux?

Reply 7 of 31, by Reckless

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I read this in a RC1 review a few weeks back. I was and still am very surprised there hasn't been more said on the subject. I've got a Audigy 2 ZS and it's a great card when used with EAX titles I own. I was always under the impression that OpenAL would not get anywhere but perhaps it will now?

This change will not affect me anyways - I don't consider Vista a useful upgrade (yes that goes for everything up to and including RC2...) and will be happy to live with my outdated OS until I'm forced to do otherwise 😀 The only machine I may upgrade is the MCE 2005 system.

Reply 8 of 31, by collector

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This might explain why I can't get my Audigy drivers to work in Vista. I'll not be in a hurry to switch to Vista.

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Reply 9 of 31, by Kippesoep

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Am I the only person who doesn't care about this? I've never noticed any difference between EAX and stereo sound, even with the demo programs that came with the sound card to show off "3D audio". All I notice is left/right, whether I use 2, 4, 5 or 7 speakers or headphones. (And yes, the system is set up correctly. Testing each channel individually activates the correct speaker).

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Reply 10 of 31, by doomer

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This is very sad indeed. I love the eax effects and now vista slams you in the face with the removal of eax in your older ds3d games. Vista seems to go further and further away from me. Ever since the sb live card I became an avid fan of the eax technology and now this...

________________________________________________________

Kippesoep wrote:

Am I the only person who doesn't care about this? I've never noticed any difference between EAX and stereo sound, even with the demo programs that came with the sound card to show off "3D audio". All I notice is left/right, whether I use 2, 4, 5 or 7 speakers or headphones. (And yes, the system is set up correctly. Testing each channel individually activates the correct speaker).

Try playing an eax enabled game, go to a specific room setting like a cathedral, a cave, try walking and then compare with eax off and eax on. You'll be amazed by the environmental sound difference. It's just a whole new world with eax on.

Reply 11 of 31, by Kippesoep

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doomer wrote:

Try playing an eax enabled game, go to a specific room setting like a cathedral, a cave, try walking and then compare with eax off and eax on. You'll be amazed by the environmental sound difference. It's just a whole new world with eax on.

I notice the reverb etc, just not the 3D positioning. Hadn't thought of that bit, though. The environmental effects will be missed. Positional sound? meh...

Reply 12 of 31, by doomer

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The positional sound is also fine, in my humble opinion. I have some 5.1 speaker system and whenever I play a game that supports 5.1 and eax, the effect is not less impressive. Games like half life 2, doom 3, world of warcraft, thief, prince of persia benefit greatly from this. Try standing near a sound source in a 5.1 eax enabled game and try to circle it. You will notice that while you move the sound surrounds you. The same is true if you are in an intense action sequence and so on.

Reply 13 of 31, by SysGOD

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... I have some 5.1 speaker system and whenever I play a game that supports 5.1 and eax, the effect is not less impressive. Games like half life 2, doom 3, world of warcraft, thief, prince of persia benefit greatly from this. Try standing near a sound source in a 5.1 eax enabled game and try to circle it. You will notice that while you move the sound surrounds you. The same is true if you are in an intense action sequence and so on.

thats exactly my opinion. the best sound experience i got with my 5.1 headset was in doom3. if i remember correctly, it was one of the first games which had real 5.1 sounds. i was so impressed that you exactly could hear where the sound came from, even if it was above or below you. after the 1.1 patch (which added openAL and EAX) the sound was even better and very realistic to me.

we can only hope that most game developers realize that problem soon and patches their newer games to use openAL. if not it could be a huge drawback for creative labs.
which gamer should care about buying an expensive soundblaster card, when his onboard sound has nearly the same (bad) quality in his favorite games under vista?...

Reply 14 of 31, by Reckless

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The 'problem' is that people have already purchased their expensive sound cards and support for a significant feature is being 'quietly' dropped, not by the makers of the card but, by Microsoft who couldn't care less what sound card you have installed (and why should they).

I doubt we'll see any more than a couple of patches to old games for this under Vista. Everyone's looking forward to next years titles after all.

It's just another in the long list of hardware obselence through OS upgrades we have to go through.

Reply 15 of 31, by DosFreak

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DirectSound3d->OpenAL wrapper? I wonder if that would be possible.

The solution for the game industry will probably be services like gametap (although I wonder if those games use EAX?). Pretty much makes me wonder why I bother to buy any games at all......

EDIT...I remember now that creative used to offer an OPENAL -> DirectSound3D wrapper for Windows XP. Not sure how well it works but at least we know it works from OpenAL->DSnd3d.

Hopefully some enterprising young charitable developer will get right on this. I don't expect Creative to do much if anything.

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Reply 16 of 31, by pjladyfox

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Looks like we should start preparing our next generation retro gaming systems. ^__^

http://openal.org/openal_vista.html

“With Microsoft's decision to remove the audio hardware layer in Windows Vista, legacy DirectSound 3D games will no longer use hardware 3D algorithms for audio spatialization. Instead they will have to rely upon the new Microsoft software mixer that is built into Windows Vista. This new software mixer will give the users basic audio support for their old Direct Sound games but since it has no hardware layer, all EAX® effects will be lost, and no individual per-voice processing can be performed using dedicated hardware processing.”

Here is Creative Labs response (which I have also verified thru our Developer Relations contact) in regards to Vista and the dropping of EAX and DirectSound support:

http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board … message.id=1694

And here is Larry Osterman, one of the software engineers at Microsoft, also has to say in regards to this matter:

http://blogs.msdn.com/larryosterman/archive/2 … /19/471346.aspx