Originally posted by Unregistered Tried a different mouse. Windows didn't even detect new hardware, but the mouse worked fine. The DOS programs still fails on mouse detection/initialization.

Was the "different mouse" a different Logitech model? I'm starting to suspect that maybe something's wrong at the motherboard level...are your mouse problems only within DOS programs ? Any mouse oddities at the Windows level?

No, this other mouse is a cheapie generic 3 button mouse. Has the Dell logo on it and nothing else. My mouse problems only reside in DOS games. Everything else works just fine without any oddities at all. Been playing Return to Castle Wolfenstein without trouble and of course use the computer for things you might expect; email, browsing, etc.

If it matters, here's what I get with mem /c:

Upper Memory :

Name Size in Decimal Size in Hex
------------- --------------------- -------------
SYSTEM 196592 (192.0K) 2FFF0
MOUSE 12528 ( 12.2K) 30F0
MSCDEXNT 464 ( 0.5K) 1D0
REDIR 2672 ( 2.6K) A70
DOSX 34848 ( 34.0K) 8820
FREE 1008 ( 1.0K) 3F0
FREE 79424 ( 77.6K) 13640

Total FREE : 80432 ( 78.5K)

Total bytes available to programs (Conventional+Upper) : 714960 (698.2K)
Largest executable program size : 633376 (618.5K)
Largest available upper memory block : 79424 ( 77.6K)

1048576 bytes total contiguous extended memory
0 bytes available contiguous extended memory
941056 bytes available XMS memory
MS-DOS resident in High Memory Area

Cush

Originally posted by Unregistered No, this other mouse is a cheapie generic 3 button mouse. Has the Dell logo on it and nothing else. My mouse problems only reside in DOS games.

Then I'm at a loss for what the problem might be. You're the first I've heard of to have mouse problems only within DOS programs running on XP. Other than contacting DELL, I'm not sure what you can do...

That won't help...I built the machine myself from parts all over the US. I'm at a loss myself; might just slick the whole system and see what happens.

Cush

Originally posted by Unregistered That won't help...I built the machine myself from parts all over the US.

Sorry. Presumed it was a Dell from the mouse reference.

I'm at a loss myself; might just slick the whole system and see what happens.

Disable the USB Legacy support. That's only needed for DOS-alikes. I doubt that it would do much, but at this point it's "try anything that doesn't do physical damage".

Also, does it do this with Win9x? Setting up a dual-boot would be advantageous...

I just enabled the USB legacy support long enough to try the mouse as a USB mouse. I put it back when that didn't work. I didn't have legacy support on when the DOS games used to run properly.

Sure, I guess I could set up a dual-boot of Windows 98. I have a copy of the OS plus the SE upgrade. Wish it was just a straight SE disc, but oh well. I guess I can see what you're getting at; software failure versus hardware failure. If it doesn't work under 98, removing Windows software won't do the trick.

The hardware certainly hasn't changed lately. Only thing I've hooked up any time recently is a USB ZIP drive and I only plug it in when I'm using it.

Cush

I don't know if this matters, but I tried the boot disk I have that I made from Windows XP; basically a DOS boot disk. I played the game from there and it ran. Of course it didn't detect a mouse or sound, but at least it didn't hang trying. I don't care how fast your computer is. Playing Wolf3D from a 3.5" floppy sucks...😀

Cush

Originally posted by Unregistered but I tried the boot disk I have that I made from Windows XP; basically a DOS boot disk. I played the game from there and it ran. Of course it didn't detect a mouse or sound, ...

Go to http://www.bootdisk.com and grab a DOS6 or DOS7 (Win9x) bootdisk.

Modify it to load a mouse driver like Cutemouse or similar. If your onboard audio chipset has a DOS driver, try installing that on the floppy as well.

After you boot from the floppy, try running EDIT and see if the mouse works properly within it. Also try some DOS games with mouse support and test the mouse there.

BTW, does XP's EDIT.COM (from the System32 directory) lock up when you use the mouse? (when running XP)

OK, let's see if I can address everything.

First of all, I did the easiest thing; I ran Edit. Man oh man, is it ever a sad day when you can play Return to Castle Wolfenstein at 1280x1024, but good ol' Edit freezes up on you. So yeah, similar symptoms there.

Next up was the boot disk. I got a boot disk for DOS 6.22 and it loaded up fine. I ran the MOUSE.COM included on the disk. That was fine. I loaded Wolfenstein 3D and sure enough, it detected the mouse and worked, minus sound. (My sound is currently onboard RealTek AC '97 sound that's common on a lot of motherboards. I couldn't find a DOS driver for it though).

Then I tried something stupid; I went into Windows XP, pulled up a command prompt, put in the DOS 6.22 disk and tried to run MOUSE.COM from there. It just said "Existing driver enabled". And once again crashed when I ran Wolfenstein 3D.

I guess the establishing conclusion is that my hardware is capable of doing this; something with Windows XP's mouse handling in DOS programs seems to be the culprit. It shows "MOUSE" as loaded whenever you open a command prompt, but I don't know where that driver comes from. Any more suggestions? Is this getting closer?

If I had a sound driver, I'd probably just make a FAT32/DOS 6.22 partition and do things that way...

Cush

It looks like you are at the "this probably doesn't have anything to do with anything, but it includes the word "Mouse" and I'm desperate stage.

So.....

http://www.winguides.com/registry/display.php/1268/

Using BOOT.INI Startup Switches (Windows NT/2000/XP)

/NOSERIALMICE=[COMx | COMx,y,z...] - Disables serial mouse detection of the specified COM port(s). Use this switch if you have a component other than a mouse attached to a serial port during the startup sequence. If you use /NOSERIALMICE without specifying a COM port, serial mouse detection is disabled on all COM ports.

Same thing here, but gives some more detail, http://www.geocities.com/csc_online/os/winnt/ and specifically mentions Logitech Mouseware and a Marble mouse.

-And then see if the problem goes away when you use the mouse with/without the PS/2 adapter.

-On the other hand if that switch is already there, try taking it out. Also the /FASTDETECT switch skips serial device detection, so if that is there try taking that out as well.

-You also might want to try the playing around with the /SAFEBOOT switch.

---------------------

[Since you reformated when you reinstalled this probably is probably isn't a Ghost problem either, but......]

"23. Uninstall ghost devices or services in Win2k/XP

When one removes hardware or a service, then sometimes Windows still thinks that the hardware or service exists and they roam about as ghost devices in the Device Manager. Ghost devices can cause slow boot and other erratic behavior because Windows tries to communicate with a device which isn't there.

To make sure that no ghost devices exists, add the following STRING values to the registry (They will become enviroment variables):

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE \SYSTEM \CurrentControlSet \Control \Session Manager \Environment]
DEVMGR_SHOW_DETAILS = "1"
DEVMGR_SHOW_NONPRESENT_DEVICES = "1"

Then start the Device Manager and select "View" in the menu and select "Show Hidden Devices". Now it should show all devices registered in your system, making it possible to remove any ghosts which shouldn't be there."

http://snakefoot.fateback.com/tweak/winnt/tips.html

-------------------

Good Luck!

It looks like you can use as much as you can get. 😀

Yeah, I went down the list and I did find some devices that weren't there. I found an extra mouse, but that's probably left over from when I tried this mouse as a USB mouse. I also played with the switches in BOOT.INI, but it didn't seem to change anything. Still locking up when I run a game. Good suggestions though; some things that hadn't come up before.

And yes, I'm about as desparate as one can get over 10+ year old software. It's more of a problem to solve than a necessity, but man is it ever irritating. At this point I'm about ready to REINSTALL the Logitech MouseWare drivers to see if they fix anything. Has anyone used their drivers and still successfully run DOS games? I'm imagining my problem is unrelated to the mouse drivers since 3rd party drivers probably don't "take over" in ntvdm.

Cush

Originally posted by Unregistered First of all, I did the easiest thing; I ran Edit. Man oh man, is it ever a sad day when you can play Return to Castle Wolfenstein at 1280x1024, but good ol' Edit freezes up on you. So yeah, similar symptoms there.

Next up was the boot disk. I got a boot disk for DOS 6.22 and it loaded up fine. I ran the MOUSE.COM included on the disk. That was fine. I loaded Wolfenstein 3D and sure enough, it detected the mouse and worked, minus sound. (My sound is currently onboard RealTek AC '97 sound that's common on a lot of motherboards.

I actually "lost" this thread until you updated it... Too many posts to track...*gunh*...anyway...

Cush. I hate to say it. But...if EDIT locks up on you...you have a real problem. EDIT is part of the operating system, and if using it causes a lock-up, you have a problem at the OS-level. Yes, I know that's debatable...EDIT is really a relic from DOS, but it's not like these other DOS titles where it's all a "crap shoot" for compatibility. EDIT should work on every single PC with XP...

I guess the establishing conclusion is that my hardware is capable of doing this; something with Windows XP's mouse handling in DOS programs seems to be the culprit.

I'm betting that XP is having issues with your hardware and/or BIOS. DOS is allowing for a functioning mouse driver so it's probably not the hardware. Hrmmm... Does your BIOS have a "SAFE" settings option? It might be time to consider that.

It shows "MOUSE" as loaded whenever you open a command prompt, but I don't know where that driver comes from.

That would be MOUSE.DRV, part of your OS. About the only option you have is removing it, but that is likely to cause even more problems.

If I had a sound driver, I'd probably just make a FAT32/DOS 6.22 partition and do things that way...

You might consider a Win9x/XP dual-boot. That wouldn't give you "true" DOS audio, but there are a number of titles that will run within Windows and I'm pretty sure that the audio chipset has at least some "DOS Prompt" support within Win9x.

One last thing, boot into XP's "safe mode" and start EDIT. Does it still lock-up/crash?

That's about all I've got...

Have you tried downloading and installing Intellipoint from Microsoft's web site? That might give the mouse system in XP a good shake.

OK more fuel for the "weird stuff" fire. I tried Intellipoint and it didn't make a difference, so I reverted back to my old settings. I did notice something by accident.

*cue X-Files music*

Edit works just fine (including usage of the mouse) UNTIL you put it in fullscreen mode where it proceeds to lock up as usual. I don't know if anything is different in windowed mode, but I will say that you don't see the mouse cursor. Clicking on the screen and the menus works fine though. Nicht Sehr Gut, I'm inclined to believe you about Edit save the fact that it does have something in common with all the other programs; mouse usage in DOS.

Are there any other DOS programs out there that use the mouse, yet don't go to full screen? Sierra's install puts you in fullscreen.

I already did the BIOS thing; reverted to the safe/default values versus "Top Performance" and "Optimized". This might be a stupid question, but how do I boot XP in safe mode? I used the /SAFEBOOT switch mentioned above, but it didn't seem to be any different.

I could do a dual-boot; I got a boot disc for virtually every Windows OS; one per computer I've owned. DOS 6.22/Windows 3.11, Windows 98, SE upgrade, 2000 Pro, and XP Pro. I just don't know why it would work before and suddenly quit, persisting through a format of the Windows partition.

Cush

Originally posted by Unregistered *cue X-Files music*

Yeah, in surround-sound no less...

Edit works just fine (including usage of the mouse) UNTIL you put it in fullscreen mode where it proceeds to lock up as usual.

So even in Windowed mode it was locking up on you...but it's not now? Not sure if this will help illuminate the problem...

Are there any other DOS programs out there that use the mouse, yet don't go to full screen? Sierra's install puts you in fullscreen.

Anything that uses graphic modes instead of text modes will force you to use full-screen. About the only thing I can think of would be to test with a setup program that uses text mode with a mouse... hrmmm...

I already did the BIOS thing; reverted to the safe/default values...

Ok.

...but how do I boot XP in safe mode? I used the /SAFEBOOT switch mentioned above, but it didn't seem to be any different.

Just crash your PC and it will go into safe mode for you.
*kidding*
Immediately after your BIOS text appears at bootup/reboot, press F8 (or like me...press it repeatedly until you see/hear some evidence that the computer "got the message").

It will present you with screen full of options. Choose "Safe Mode", then choose your OS again.

I could do a dual-boot; I got a boot disc for virtually every Windows OS; one per computer I've owned. DOS 6.22/Windows 3.11, Windows 98, SE upgrade,

A Win9x/XP dual-boot is your best bet for compatibility. It covers just about every title available. Of course, getting DOS sound with modern motherboards/sound cards has become an obstacle now...

I just don't know why it would work before and suddenly quit, persisting through a format of the Windows partition.

I call it "Magic Radiation". Whenever something comes along that's just inexplicable, I chalked it up to exposure to radiation or magic. That's when I realized that it must be a combination of the two..."Magic Radiation".

Others have experienced it as well...

Nicht Sehr Gut wrote:

Just crash your PC and it will go into safe mode for you.
*kidding*

Funny you should mention that, as I recall reading the other day about a way to enable a key-combination that causes a fatal BSOD in Win2K/XP (for testing purposes).

Immediately after your BIOS text appears at bootup/reboot, press F8 (or like me...press it repeatedly until you see/hear some evidence that the computer "got the message").

I call it "Magic Radiation". Whenever something comes along that's just inexplicable, I chalked it up to exposure to radiation or magic. That's when I realized that it must be a combination of the two..."Magic Radiation".

I've always been partial to the ghosts/spirits and gremlins theories, but I guess they could arguably fall under magic and radiation, respectively. Don't forget the phases-of-the-moon theory though.

Oh great. A brand new computer is already suffering the effects of the paranormal. Couldn't it just refuse to run spyware or pop-ups as opposed to DOS games?

I don't know if Edit used to crash or not before. It was by pure chance I realized the mouse was working in windowed mode. I usually switch to full-screen or use a command-prompt and go to fullscreen before testing stuff. With the games I had working before, I just click the .EXE file like I used to.

Sierra's SCI install program is a text-mode 80x25 with a mouse cursor, but when you run it, it puts a bunch of ....... on the screen, then switches to fullscreen on its own whereupon it's rendered useless.

I was beginning to think it might actually be fullscreen, but then I remember how I got tipped off to the problem; DarkSun II Wake of the Ravager will go through the entire intro without any problems, but when it gets to the main menu, the mouse cursor shows up and the game subsequently freezes.

I thought F8 was DOS mode. I must have not been hitting it forcefully or frequently enough. If anyone wants to take a good hard look at the problem (I'm about to put up a damn reward just to find out ultimately what's causing this), or if you offer exorcisms, let me know, I'll set up a Remote Desktop account and if you solve the problem, a shrine in your honor...😀

In the meantime, I'll give Safe Boot another shot.

Cush

Originally posted by Unregistered Couldn't it just refuse to run spyware or pop-ups as opposed to DOS games?

Dream on...

Sierra's SCI install program is a text-mode 80x25 with a mouse cursor, but when you run it, it puts a bunch of ....... on the screen, then switches to fullscreen on its own whereupon it's rendered useless.

What we really need is a DOS program that runs in a window in XP, with sound and mouse support. Can't think of one at present, but since you were able to get DOS mouse support in a window, the next thing to test would be Digital and FM sound within a windowed DOS prompt. Will take a look...

I was beginning to think it might actually be fullscreen, but then I remember how I got tipped off to the problem; DarkSun II Wake of the Ravager will go through the entire intro without any problems, but when it gets to the main menu, the mouse cursor shows up and the game subsequently freezes.

Have you tried Ms.PacEm? If I'm understanding what you said correctly, the problem is triggered by a mouse+fullscreen combination. Theoretically, it should run fine.

OK, lots of ground to cover again.

MsPacEm installed fine using SETUP.EXE. When I run it, it goes to fullscreen and hangs on a blank screen. Very odd; perhaps something else is going on here.

On to Safe Boot...I booted in safe mode and here's what I got:

Police Quest 1 VGA - Ran correctly
Inherit The Earth - Ran correctly
Ms. Pacman - Ran correctly
Wolfenstein 3D - Got past detection, mouse lit up as did the bars for various memory, but the game froze the entire system when it said "Press Any Key". Could be a Compatibility Mode thing, but it got farther than it did before.

With Police Quest 1 VGA, I was able to run the install program without problems and turn off the mouse.

Games ran really slowly in Safe Mode; the NTDVM process took an inordinate amount of CPU time spiked at 100 percent. More than I see in normal mode.

Back to booting in normal mode, I ran Police Quest 1 and it put the Sierra logo on the screen before freezing. Everything froze as described above; Inherit The Earth on the logo screen, Wolfenstein on the detection screen and Ms. Pacman on a blank screen.

Maybe it's not just the mouse. Now I've really got no clue what's triggering freeze ups. But now I'm really intrigued to find out what it is exactly.

Can anyone draw any conclusions from these events? Virtually flawless mouse support in games (Wolf3D is the exception, it hung) under Safe Mode and not Normal Mode?

Cush

Originally posted by Unregistered MsPacEm installed fine using SETUP.EXE. When I run it, it goes to fullscreen and hangs on a blank screen. Very odd; perhaps something else is going on here.

At least two things seem to be going on: DOS mouse support and DOS audio support problems. It's quite possible that you may have more than one "issue" causing these problems. That, of course, makes troubleshooting very difficult.

On to Safe Boot...I booted in safe mode and here's what I got: Police Quest 1 VGA - Ran correctly Inherit The Earth - Ran corre […]
Show full quote

On to Safe Boot...I booted in safe mode and here's what I got:

Police Quest 1 VGA - Ran correctly
Inherit The Earth - Ran correctly
Ms. Pacman - Ran correctly

Hrmmm...

Games ran really slowly in Safe Mode; the NTDVM process took an inordinate amount of CPU time spiked at 100 percent. More than I see in normal mode.

*heh* Uh, yeah. Safe mode isn't meant for anything approaching normal operation, it's only for troubleshooting really bad Windows problems.

Back to booting in normal mode, I ran Police Quest 1 and it put the Sierra logo on the screen before freezing. Everything froze as described above; Inherit The Earth on the logo screen, Wolfenstein on the detection screen and Ms. Pacman on a blank screen.

Right. When "Safe Mode" is used only the most critically important parts of the OS are loaded. So when you go back to a normal boot all of the OS, startup-programs, etc... are run. Which means that it's one of those tasks/processes that's having a conflict with your DOS titles...

Can anyone draw any conclusions from these events?

About the only thing I can think of would be a program allowing direct hardware access (a no-no in XP) or a virus that doesn't work when in Safe Mode...that or Magic Radiation.